Suzumushi and Tousen

[Mushiro]

I was thinking earlier about Tousens Zanpakuto, Suzumushi. Tousens Zanpakuto is the only in all of Soul Society that doesn't originally belong to its user. Tousen took Suzumushi from his friends grave, and learned to use it's powers (Or the Zanpakuto accepted Tousen as its new owner, or both?)

My point is, could Tousen have a Zanpakuto of his own, but has never shown it? Perhaps Suzumushi isn't as powerful as his own Zanpakuto, and that's how Zaraki defeated him? It's obvious now that Tousen is much more powerful than he was since battle against Zaraki.

What y'all think? DISCUSS

[silenceisntgold2]

I completely forgot that it wasn't his to begin with.. He definitely has his own Zan if he used to be a captain. There's gotta be rules about that stuff. I wonder why his friend's sword opened up to him to begin with.

[Darth Kenshin]

My guess is that he doesn't necessarily have to have his own. Tousen said he joined the Shinigami after he took his friend's Zan. Not every one throughout Soul Society has their own Zan, so it's possible that Tousen didn't either and was just wandering around without a lot of power of his own. I'd assume this particular Zan accepted Tousen as its master (probably because he upheld the same principles as the former master), and since there are 3 clear ways to become a captain, Tousen was able to ascend to that rank even though he might not have his own sword.

[Vergil the Fallen]

I don't think he has his own because why would he bother to expand the powers of Suzimishi if he has the opportunity to expand his own? But on the other hand if he has one, he should be considered more powerful than Aizen. Tousen took the zan and made as his own. Case closed. Zaraki defeated him because of Zaraki's enormous reitsu and his blood lust. Tousen is more powerful now because maybe he learned new powers in terms of increasing his shinigami powers or maybe becoming a vizard. He had a crap load of time to modify his powers. For example Hitsogaya learned the Ice Prison between when he fought Shawlong and when he fought Luppi. That was a short period of time, imagine what Tousen could achieve the gap he was given, from fighting Zaraki till now

[Mushiro]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

My guess is that he doesn't necessarily have to have his own. Tousen said he joined the Shinigami after he took his friend's Zan. Not every one throughout Soul Society has their own Zan, so it's possible that Tousen didn't either and was just wandering around without a lot of power of his own. I'd assume this particular Zan accepted Tousen as its master (probably because he upheld the same principles as the former master), and since there are 3 clear ways to become a captain, Tousen was able to ascend to that rank even though he might not have his own sword.

Well worded, but he had to be a strong individual to begin with. Otherwise he wouldn't have the reiatsu to release the Zanpakuto. Now, my next thought is, when he took the Zanpakuto from the grave, he obviously had to have some kind of dialogue between himself and the Zanpakuto's spirit. I wonder if the Zanpakuto allowed Tousen to use the full extent of the powers the previous owner did, meaning, did the former user know the Bankai technique for Suzumushi? Or was that an ability it's previous owner did not have, that Tousen was able to achieve?

If Tousen is powerful enough to become a Captain, and Suzumushi does not belong to him, then his true Zanpakuto must summon him much like Hyourinmaru did to Hitsugaya when he was younger. The only way I could see this not happening is if the Zanpakuto's spirit fused with Tousens soul, and became a separate Zanpakuto in itself from its previous form. Making Suzumushi a spawn of Tousens soul.

The fact that Suzumushi is not Tousens true Zanpakuto kind of throws a monkey wrench into what we already know about Zanpakuto. This peeks my interest if you haven't noticed

[Deathga]

I think it possible that the previous owner never achieved bankai with Suzumushi. We all know Tousen is blind, and his bankai like Tousen himself said is kind of like his life is.. if I remember correctly. I doubt whoever owned Suzumushi before would, or could of obtained a bankai quite like Tousen has.. or anyone for that matter.

[bigdaddy9247]

This may be a nice theory. While i think it is highly unlikely that Toushen has 2 zanpakutos, it would make him very powerful and hard to defeat. I think he does not and has just fused his spirirt with the sword. I mean if he could use two at once, wouldnt he be like Ukitake And Shunsui?? They alone have twin swords. But it isnt written in stone.
I dont see him all of a sudden pulling out another type of power set. What, will he be able to see now or something?
This actually brings up another question along with this topic. Are shinigami born with reiatsui to materialize a zanpakuto or can they just simply have the will and find one to weild it?
Cuz if they are born with the power, he may have 2. If they arent and you can simply take another persons provided it accepts you, why not have 3 or 4 differnt types of swords??
I think you can have only one sword or true zanpakuto at one time. Sure Ukitake and Shunsi seem to have 2, but are one of their swords as powerful as one of anothers??I doubt one of thier twin swords is a powerful as say Uraharas you know. How about it?
I think that Toushen can not possibly have 2. That would be like having 2 types of powers. You would need a amazingly lot of reiatsui to power them both at once. I would assume that is the same as knowing multiple martial arts. Even though you learn tae kwon do, if you try to learn say Muy thai, you would have to find a way to completely shut off the tae kwon do skills as it would interfere with you learning another art.

[Darth Kenshin]

Originally Posted by Mushiro

Well worded, but he had to be a strong individual to begin with. Otherwise he wouldn't have the reiatsu to release the Zanpakuto. Now, my next thought is, when he took the Zanpakuto from the grave, he obviously had to have some kind of dialogue between himself and the Zanpakuto's spirit. I wonder if the Zanpakuto allowed Tousen to use the full extent of the powers the previous owner did, meaning, did the former user know the Bankai technique for Suzumushi? Or was that an ability it's previous owner did not have, that Tousen was able to achieve?

I wouldn't think the former owner new bankai. Tousen said the former owner died shortly after joining the Shinigami, meaning she was most likely a low level Shinigami, probably not even seated. So, unless she was some kind of super prodigy, she shouldn't have been able to use bankai shortly after joining the Shinigami. I guess once it accepted Tousen as its master, he was able to unleash those abilities.

Originally Posted by Mushiro

If Tousen is powerful enough to become a Captain, and Suzumushi does not belong to him, then his true Zanpakuto must summon him much like Hyourinmaru did to Hitsugaya when he was younger. The only way I could see this not happening is if the Zanpakuto's spirit fused with Tousens soul, and became a separate Zanpakuto in itself from its previous form. Making Suzumushi a spawn of Tousens soul.

The fact that Suzumushi is not Tousens true Zanpakuto kind of throws a monkey wrench into what we already know about Zanpakuto. This peeks my interest if you haven't noticed

That's an interesting point. I would guess something like that happened... once Suzumushi accepted Tousen, and he began to master it, he infused some of his soul into it. But I really have no clue. Certainly an interesting subject... and definitely something they'll have to revisit once Tousen explains his stance on justice a bit deeper in the future.

Originally Posted by bigdaddy9247

This actually brings up another question along with this topic. Are shinigami born with reiatsui to materialize a zanpakuto or can they just simply have the will and find one to weild it?

Well as we've seen, a Shinigami can attain a Zan in either way (Hitsugaya and Tousen are examples). And although they didn't explain how Tousen learned to wield Suzumushi, my guess would be, as Mushiro pointed out, that he has to have an innately powerful reiatsu to be able to master a Zan, whether its his own, or one he takes from someone else. A scrub from Rukongai can't just pick up a Zan after someone dies and wield it effectively. The sword probably would not accept someone weak as its master. I would assume a person with low reiatsu could pick up a Zanpakuto, but probably just use it as a normal sword, and never be able to use any of its abilities. Will power isn't enough.

[derekmcdaniel]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

I wouldn't think the former owner new bankai. Tousen said the former owner died shortly after joining the Shinigami, meaning she was most likely a low level Shinigami, probably not even seated. So, unless she was some kind of super prodigy, she shouldn't have been able to use bankai shortly after joining the Shinigami. I guess once it accepted Tousen as its master, he was able to unleash those abilities.

I wouldn't correlate duration of shinigami status to skill. It may be the case for many shinigami but is not absolute. For example, Kenpachi walked right into the status of captain of the 11th squad upon defeating the former captain. Before that instance he had a zanpakuto, but was not a shinigami. And afterall, Ichigo obtained bankai before becoming a substitute shinigame. These are two rare instances, but it can't be ruled out.

If Tousen does have two zanpakutos, then perhaps the two of them may battle for superiority with only one being able to be used proficiently. Or possibly Tousen's soul must be unified with his "borrowed" zanpakuto to the extent that he can no longer use his own.

[Darth Kenshin]

Originally Posted by derekmcdaniel

I wouldn't correlate duration of shinigami status to skill. It may be the case for many shinigami but is not absolute. For example, Kenpachi walked right into the status of captain of the 11th squad upon defeating the former captain. Before that instance he had a zanpakuto, but was not a shinigami. And afterall, Ichigo obtained bankai before becoming a substitute shinigame. These are two rare instances, but it can't be ruled out.

If Tousen does have two zanpakutos, then perhaps the two of them may battle for superiority with only one being able to be used proficiently. Or possibly Tousen's soul must be unified with his "borrowed" zanpakuto to the extent that he can no longer use his own.

You're right, it's not absolute... which is why I didn't speak in an absolute tone. Odds are, though, that she didn't achieve bankai. The two people you mentioned as exceptions to the correlation of Shinigami Status and Skill are very rare cases. Plus, Kenpachi doesn't have bankai any way, and Ichigo used a technique that only one other person used to achieve it (Urahara) so I stand by my statement that it is highly likely that she didn't have bankai.

As for the second part of your post... Your second suggestion is pretty much what I think happened (aka, the easy answer), but your first suggestion (about them battling) is very interesting. Kind of wish I thought of it first.