Strongest Captain? - Excluding Yamamoto!

[bigdaddy9247]

Once we have witnessed all of their respective powers, then i think we can make a case for either one of them.
I still think Aizen is a beast on multiple levels above what everyone else has shown.
Nonetheless, Shunsui is definitely number 1. Ukitake and Unohana fight it out for 2-3. Ukitake may be better than Shunsui because he was willing to fight yamamoto on top of the Execution grounds. Shunnuis thought otherwise......And Ukitake can be healed by Unohana at any moment perhaps......

[Grimmjow_sull]

i reckon it would have to be ukitake
i just have a feeling his bankai will be unbeliveable
possibly equal with shunsui

but there is no way that hitsaguya is anywhere near any of the others. ( thats what CrayZ said)

[holyken]

Ukitake....Yama-jii praised him alot....he seems to have everything...but has we have found out, his health lets him down alot..he cant win battles against people with healing soul slayer capabilities like Hitsuguya and possibly Unohana...difficult soul slayer to fight against..overall i think his not the strongest.....
Still think Shunsui and Ukitake are on the same level...(except for the health factor)....

[DarthMischa]

While Shunsui is my favorite, I'm going to say Unohana, not because of anything we've yet seen, but what we've not seen. This based purely on a story telling point of view. Anime like this progress fairly predictably: the sooner someone's powers are revealed, the weaker they are in comparison to those who remain mysterious. We've seen something of what Kyouraku can do, and even less of Ukitake. Unohana, on the other hand, we've only seen as a healer. The fights all progress up, like with the Espada. I think that the formula will reveal that she's going to be one heck of a scary opponent.

[TrigIII]

I really like all the perspectives and I agree that the strongest (by ability to attain victory) would be amongst the 3 longest sitting captains, 4th,8th, and 13th. Which one? I think each are probably more than likely around the same but with peaks in different areas: Unohana in Defensive Kidou/Healing, Shunshui in Kenjutsu, and Ukitake in Offensive Kidou (though it's suggested Unohana is soul societies most proficient "swords'man'" next to Yamamoto in data book souls; further alluded by her hobby being Kendo).

As for my personal little rant... I am surprised that many people still peg Kenpachi as a total idiot on the battlefield, or that his raw power is just fireworks or an unrefined version of the top Captains. I believe I addressed this in full on a Zaraki vs. Ichigo thread quite a while ago. Zaraki is deceptively slow, uncoordinated, and simple to read.

Behind every one of Zaraki's fights, other than Yamamoto totally defeating him in one hit during flash backs in dojo, Zaraki has been demonstrated to catch all of his opponents offguard (from Ichigo, Tousen, to Byakuya now, albeit filler). He correctly identifies weaknesses and assesses situation relevant to his own handicaps as well (a point Tite himself strongly makes). Besides speed is not always as useful as good timing (this I believe Zaraki beats Ichigo in, catching blades of Captain class opponents is not just for show). His battle "instincts" are superb, perhaps the best.

Another point to make is addressing his power, it really should be the highest amongst the captains save perhaps Yamamoto. I of course am basing this off logic and mechanical devices of appeal (perhaps Tite does not see him as so). Why bother creating a raw power based character whose raw power is his whole appeal just to steal that thunder? All captains other than perhaps Yamamoto come second in stamina/Reiatsu and has at least been startled by his reiatsu's capability/intensity at least once or noted it. Also keep in mind these events also usually take place with his eyepatch "on" which doesn't just seal, but eats the Reiatsu, diminishing its seemingly limitless well. Almost makes you wonder if a gigai could ever deplete him to human form, it is after all similar tech. I'm also assuming the last Kenpachi was a more controlled and tempered individual who held the seat of "greatest blade" (based on Maki's claims, again filler but you gotta wonder if Tite wanted it there). Which means he bested a beast who was in total control of their element, perhaps it wasn't a landslide but his instinct and Reiatsu pulled through.

Reason to believe this for me is Yamamoto's approval of letting Zaraki into the squads. If an unrefined brute were allowed in and tutored by Yamamoto himself to an extent (as seen in flashback), Yamamoto has thought of at least 2 things. This Reiatsu if used against the Gotei will really muck up the place (perhaps cost him a high class captain), and secondly that Kenpachi is a cannon that, however loose, can be controlled given the right target and drive. It's also good to remind ourselves that he purposely handicaps himself at all times without exception to prolong fights (have never seen him fight at max and in fit of rage/concentration while totally unscathed thus far, and unfortunately only gravely hurting Yachiru would trigger said event I suppose :S). For me, this is where he fails... He doesn't seize the moment for advantage but rather the opposite, unlike the senior captains. Battles are won by seeking any and all advantages, he seemingly ignores them... If he struck with all he got from the get go... for sure nothing he can't cut as stated by himself. The way he is, he won't run out of juice any time soon either. This is probably where the misconception about him being a stupid fighter comes from. He is not a rational fighter, but this does not mean he's stupid, rather, he knows but chooses not to "do" making him ignorant and hence his downfall. Senior Captains... are the furthest from ignorant imaginable. Automatic loss as a result against Senior Captains.

If it's true that Reiatsu depletes substantially based on your physical state or abuse taken, then those hundreds of free hits he gave Nnoitra before using Kendo leads to a weaker Kenpachi striking, which leads to a weaker strike, and so on and so forth. If we take anatomy even more seriously, having major tissues cut and some tendons perhaps severed... his swings by Kendo time would have been decreased to laughable levels in relevant capacity (then again Tite has failed the medical section more times then Edison on the way to the light bulb).

[bigdaddy9247]

Originally Posted by TrigIII

I really like all the perspectives and I agree that the strongest (by ability to attain victory) would be amongst the 3 longest sitting captains, 4th,8th, and 13th. Which one? I think each are probably more than likely around the same but with peaks in different areas: Unohana in Defensive Kidou/Healing, Shunshui in Kenjutsu, and Ukitake in Offensive Kidou (though it's suggested Unohana is soul societies most proficient "swords'man'" next to Yamamoto in data book souls; further alluded by her hobby being Kendo).

As for my personal little rant... I am surprised that many people still peg Kenpachi as a total idiot on the battlefield, or that his raw power is just fireworks or an unrefined version of the top Captains. I believe I addressed this in full on a Zaraki vs. Ichigo thread quite a while ago. Zaraki is deceptively slow, uncoordinated, and simple to read.

Behind every one of Zaraki's fights, other than Yamamoto totally defeating him in one hit during flash backs in dojo, Zaraki has been demonstrated to catch all of his opponents offguard (from Ichigo, Tousen, to Byakuya now, albeit filler). He correctly identifies weaknesses and assesses situation relevant to his own handicaps as well (a point Tite himself strongly makes). Besides speed is not always as useful as good timing (this I believe Zaraki beats Ichigo in, catching blades of Captain class opponents is not just for show). His battle "instincts" are superb, perhaps the best.

Another point to make is addressing his power, it really should be the highest amongst the captains save perhaps Yamamoto. I of course am basing this off logic and mechanical devices of appeal (perhaps Tite does not see him as so). Why bother creating a raw power based character whose raw power is his whole appeal just to steal that thunder? All captains other than perhaps Yamamoto come second in stamina/Reiatsu and has at least been startled by his reiatsu's capability/intensity at least once or noted it. Also keep in mind these events also usually take place with his eyepatch "on" which doesn't just seal, but eats the Reiatsu, diminishing its seemingly limitless well. Almost makes you wonder if a gigai could ever deplete him to human form, it is after all similar tech. I'm also assuming the last Kenpachi was a more controlled and tempered individual who held the seat of "greatest blade" (based on Maki's claims, again filler but you gotta wonder if Tite wanted it there). Which means he bested a beast who was in total control of their element, perhaps it wasn't a landslide but his instinct and Reiatsu pulled through.

Reason to believe this for me is Yamamoto's approval of letting Zaraki into the squads. If an unrefined brute were allowed in and tutored by Yamamoto himself to an extent (as seen in flashback), Yamamoto has thought of at least 2 things. This Reiatsu if used against the Gotei will really muck up the place (perhaps cost him a high class captain), and secondly that Kenpachi is a cannon that, however loose, can be controlled given the right target and drive. It's also good to remind ourselves that he purposely handicaps himself at all times without exception to prolong fights (have never seen him fight at max and in fit of rage/concentration while totally unscathed thus far, and unfortunately only gravely hurting Yachiru would trigger said event I suppose :S). For me, this is where he fails... He doesn't seize the moment for advantage but rather the opposite, unlike the senior captains. Battles are won by seeking any and all advantages, he seemingly ignores them... If he struck with all he got from the get go... for sure nothing he can't cut as stated by himself. The way he is, he won't run out of juice any time soon either. This is probably where the misconception about him being a stupid fighter comes from. He is not a rational fighter, but this does not mean he's stupid, rather, he knows but chooses not to "do" making him ignorant and hence his downfall. Senior Captains... are the furthest from ignorant imaginable. Automatic loss as a result against Senior Captains.

If it's true that Reiatsu depletes substantially based on your physical state or abuse taken, then those hundreds of free hits he gave Nnoitra before using Kendo leads to a weaker Kenpachi striking, which leads to a weaker strike, and so on and so forth. If we take anatomy even more seriously, having major tissues cut and some tendons perhaps severed... his swings by Kendo time would have been decreased to laughable levels in relevant capacity (then again Tite has failed the medical section more times then Edison on the way to the light bulb).

Kenpachi is a beast, thats for sure.
Definately the strongest potential besides ichigo.

[Striid]

I think you guys are missing something pretty big.

Shunsui Kyōraku and Jūshirō Ukitake both posses the only 2 "dual" Zanpakutō. I think this may give them a firm advantage in battle. In a battle, 2 dual zanpakutō would win over just a single one (based on my opinion).

Though, I will agree that Retsu Unohana deserves a mention. If she were to get into battle, if she were to get hurt, couldn't she just heal herself? And if she was low on spirit energy, she has that flying stingray looking thing which would help her heal.

I think it's a toss up between Shunsui Kyōraku and Jūshirō Ukitake for the #2 spot (with the Commander General being first, obviously). I don't count Aizen though, because he isn't a Captain anymore. Though I think he would probably take the #2 spot. Perhaps even a tie for #1 spot. Since Aizen does say he had advanced as far as it was possible for him to go with Shinigami powers, which is why he wanted the Hōgyoku in order to gain Hollow Powers.

[TrigIII]

Yeah I think you're right about the Dual Zanpakuto having to count for something unique in either their power or "Destiny" as key contributors to the Defenses of SS. But I don't think the 2 Zans vs. 1 is necessarily the reason for the stronger odds. It is more complicated so it's unpredictable and has higher attack probabilities. On the other hand, 2 hands on one blade (as exemplified by Kenpachi) issues much more swinging power and leverage. Besides 2 swords only became a popular or menacing image after Miyamoto Musashi. Before him thousands of schools valued the simplicity of singular blades more. It really depends on the user in the end and not the value of the Zanpakuto (the Zanpakuto serve as enhancers of what is already there in a sense).

Just check out the guys from the Itto Ryu branches of Kendo and Iado, they rarely ever use 2 swords. For me I personally think it's a aesthetic touch for most, while for others who reallly know how to use such duo handed techniques forgo strength and concentration for speed and probability. The older style Tachi's for example would not be effective one handed, but require a two handed approach, not like the shorter variant Katana seen in the post Hideyoshi reform periods where it was required that samurai cut the length of their swords. Remember, using two swords requires almost dance like footwork to issue large enough movement and folding power, whereas the body wraps around single handed techniques and issues power from the back and trunk of the body.

[Striid]

I agree with a lot of your points, but I also think that you simply can't discount having 2 dual Zanpakuto's.

Let us consider the facts.

1) Those 2 were the first 2 "Shinigami" after the old man. Perhaps not the original first 2, but the first 2 in the Shinigami school after the old man created it.

2) They have had thousands of years to practice and hone their skills with using 2 Zanpakuto's. And since they have the only 2 dual Zanpakuto's, they have so much more experience in fighting against single swords.

You can easily use one blade to block or parry an attack, leaving opponent wide open for the 2nd sword. With small swords (like Katana's, not greatswords and such), you can move faster than if you used a big sword, your attacks may lack as much power; but you also have more offensive opportunities than you would with a single sword.

Even if they aren't the 2nd or 3rd most powerful, I believe their experience and wisdom give them that 2nd and 3rd spot; simply because of their vast experience. If you look at list (I used wiki for it) of who the captains are, you can see that most of the other squads have had anywhere from 2-4 different Captains (that are known, may be others). So these 2 have survived longer than any other Captain (as far as we can tell), besides the old man.

[silenceisntgold2]

It depends on the definition of "strongest." (if I recall correctly, we're ignoring Yamamoto... so on with the plan)

If it's reiatsu, it's by far Kenpachi. It seems to me that the more people fight, the more reiatsu they can use/have in general. Kenpachi and Ichigo are perfect examples. Ikkaku too even. Kenpachi and Ichigo have probably fought the most out of everyone, therefore, they have the most raw reiatsu. Ikkaku is also battle driven, probably the second most(with their own form) in the series, and he is one of the only non-captains to have Bankai.

If it's how well they fare on the battlefield, probably Mayuri. He knows how the enemy works and can counter anything they throw at him. He melted into soup because Ishida wrecked him. How can you defeat an enemy that can ooze away so they can recover?

If it's experience and ability, Ukitake and/or Shunsui. They both excelled in the Shinigami Academy. They also stood up against Yamamoto(as a unit but still) basically without interference.

If it's potential, Hitsugaya. The prodigy. He's a prodigy, they've stressed that enough. And his zanpakuto is the strongest ICE zanpakuto. Ice is good for freezing people in place. While he slashes them up.

In terms of backing army size, without a doubt it's Soi Fon. When she unsheathes the Covert Ops. blade, there's a shitload of them on you.


The only 2 I haven't seen a possibility for are Komamura and Byakuya. Komamura just seems too average in abilities, and a bit lacking in terms of Bankai power. And Byakuya... Well he's a different story altogether. His powers are too immature to be proficient in using them. He wasn't even in the Shinigami Academy in the TBTP arc(correct me if I'm wrong but he was just training with Yoruichi and using the kendo stick), and as he said(I think... correct me again), it takes hundreds of years to master Bankai.