Going back and watching the beginning again and...

forge · Oct. 5th, 2009, 08:08 AM

Very beginning of episode 8...in Hueco Mundo. Grand fisher meets with at least 2 or 3 hollows...anybody remember that? hmm The first one that you see his face kind of looks like Iceringer but the second one is one that I couldn't really find any hollows to match up to. I certainly didn't remember this scene...kind of makes me wonder just how many vasto lordes there are out there...

Also...on the note of past events...anybody else get the feeling that Urahara is somehow behind everything? I mean...besides the generously vague looks he gives in the beginning of the anime...the way that he was drawn as a shadowy, demonstrative guy...he's got a track record of being a very influential person.. .

He helped Ichigo chase after Rukia in episode 16 fully knowing who he would confront and what the outcome would be...and he was there to pick up the powerless scraps. He "hollowized" him...taught him shikai...helped him get into soul society...gave Yoruichi the tools needed to teach him bankai. He had the vizards train him in his mask use. And that's just the things that I remember right off the top of my head.

The whole Aizen/Vizard thing happened right when he became captain...coincidence? All the things leading in to the soul society arc and putting Ichigo into a place where he would be viewed as an intruder and making him the necessary distraction for Aizen to complete his plans. Heck...he probably sent Ichigo and co into Hueco Mundo knowing full well that it's nothing more than a distraction and that the real offensive will happen outside.

All this just strikes me as well more than coincidence...

Kyotsyu · Oct. 5th, 2009, 08:31 AM

It wasn't right after he became captain, it was like years after. The begining of TBTP is right when he became a captain but then it fast forwarded a few years, can't remember exactly how many.
But yeah, it's weird. But still, if he was on Aizen's side why create a powerful enough person to defeat him? He also knows Isshin, which would be weird if he didn't care at all and just wanted to help Aizen. Also, if he was helping Aizen initially with the hollowification of the captains he wouldn't now, Aizen left him behind to be sentenced to exilement and the sealing of his Shinigami powers. I think even Urahara wouldn't like to be treated like that.:P

forge · Oct. 5th, 2009, 08:51 AM

I have no defense for that first statement other than I would say a handful of years is nothing for shinigami might as well be 'right after'.

Going on the presumption that some people on this board don't read the manga ...

Spoiler: MANGA SPOILER WARNING

As to why he's gone through all the trouble to rear weak little human Ichigo into the powerhouse he's become...my only guess is that he's using Ichigo as a launchpad...testing ground for something else he's developing. There's got to be something he's been doing all these thousands of years. Possibly creating the vizards was step one...Ichigo's human/shinigami/hollow/vizard arrangement and the way he's been brought up may be step 2...step 3, may be something that could shake the foundation of this anime.

Dunno..hehe...nothing but pure speculation and my insane theorizing. Like I've said before....man I wish I was in control of this anime...it would be crazy as hell. Then again, not much is more cliche in anime or movies than the teacher becoming the enemy...maybe that is a bit overplayed.

Darth Kenshin · Oct. 5th, 2009, 10:34 AM

well to answer your first question, I believe this is the scene you're talking about (I don't watch the anime so I don't know what episode 8 is): Bleach 25 page 18 | One Manga

It's most likely Iceringer and D-Roy. The facial structure and the location of the hollow hole point to D-Roy. He looks a bit different the next time we see him, but that's reasonable. Aizen may have used the Hougyoku on him to change his appearance, or it could just be an illustrative continuity thing, as many characters who disappear for a long time (we don't see D-Roy again for years after this appearance, as it's over 150 chapters later) so Tite could've just altered his design a bit. But most likely, it's D-Roy.

**Mushiro** · Oct. 5th, 2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

well to answer your first question, I believe this is the scene you're talking about (I don't watch the anime so I don't know what episode 8 is): Bleach 25 page 18 | One Manga

It's most likely Iceringer and D-Roy. The facial structure and the location of the hollow hole point to D-Roy. He looks a bit different the next time we see him, but that's reasonable. Aizen may have used the Hougyoku on him to change his appearance, or it could just be an illustrative continuity thing, as many characters who disappear for a long time (we don't see D-Roy again for years after this appearance, as it's over 150 chapters later) so Tite could've just altered his design a bit. But most likely, it's D-Roy.

It was indeed D-Roy. It's stated in the Bleach Character Book SOULS. I think it was more of an artistic thing at the time, and he didn't have D-Roys character design fully developed yet.

As for Urahara being behind everything. Of course he was. He had to hastily move the Hougyuku from Isshin to Rukia after the Kurosaki residence was attacked by a Hollow. He knew his Hougyuku would be in danger in Soul Society since Aizen was there, so he had to take drastic measures to somehow get it back. Since he was unable to enter Soul Society himself, and Yoruichi would be easily recognized, Ichigo was his best bet. He played dumb with Ichigo, hence he had to apologize to him when he returned.

I see Urahara's actions and intentions more as counter-attacks to Aizen's plans rather than assisting his plans. I don't think the two are working together at all. It's more like a chess match between the two. Both making drastic moves of their pawns and power pieces.

Darth Kenshin · Oct. 5th, 2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushiro

As for Urahara being behind everything. Of course he was. He had to hastily move the Hougyuku from Isshin to Rukia after the Kurosaki residence was attacked by a Hollow. He knew his Hougyuku would be in danger in Soul Society since Aizen was there, so he had to take drastic measures to somehow get it back. Since he was unable to enter Soul Society himself, and Yoruichi would be easily recognized, Ichigo was his best bet. He played dumb with Ichigo, hence he had to apologize to him when he returned.

I think there's more to it than Ichigo wouldn't be recognized. I'm assuming Urahara manipulated Ichigo because he knew his potential, probably based on the fact that he's Isshin's son. He even told Yoruichi that Ichio's potential is far beyond his own. The scientist part of Urahara probably realized the unique potential of Ichigo, and that's why he worked so hard to get Ichigo to want to help him.

Remember, Urahara could've stopped Rukia from being captured in the first place. He said he didn't help because he wanted Ichigo to fight Byakuya and Renji and lose to give him a reality check. All along, he wanted Ichigo to accept his training, so he can transform him into a super being, as his potential is probably beyond every one else's.

**Mushiro** · Oct. 5th, 2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

I think there's more to it than Ichigo wouldn't be recognized. I'm assuming Urahara manipulated Ichigo because he knew his potential, probably based on the fact that he's Isshin's son. He even told Yoruichi that Ichio's potential is far beyond his own. The scientist part of Urahara probably realized the unique potential of Ichigo, and that's why he worked so hard to get Ichigo to want to help him.

Remember, Urahara could've stopped Rukia from being captured in the first place. He said he didn't help because he wanted Ichigo to fight Byakuya and Renji and lose to give him a reality check. All along, he wanted Ichigo to accept his training, so he can transform him into a super being, as his potential is probably beyond every one else's.

I guess he could've stopped Rukia's capture. Perhaps he thought that the Hougyuku was safe enough, and didn't plan on Aizen finding his research on how to remove it.

Either way, I don't think Urahara's intentions are malicious as Aizens are. He might have goals that aren't necessarily in the best interests of the Gotei 13, but he's definitely on their side in this battle.

PrimeraOye · Oct. 5th, 2009, 05:22 PM

I used to think that Urahara was bad as well, the way they drew him at the start of the anime just made him look like a bad guy. Now, however, I definitely think he is one their side. It's true that the hollowification ideas seemed to have come from him, but I don't think he's helping Aizen in any way.
I do agree with you when you said he's using Ichigo as a tester. When Ichigo first got his hollow powers, it was as if Urahara knew exactly what was happening. He probably knew Ichigo had the strength to fight back the hollow, so he wanted to see if it was possible to gain hollow powers without the Hougyoku.

Shiouhin_Hannibal · Oct. 5th, 2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushiro

Either way, I don't think Urahara's intentions are malicious as Aizens are. He might have goals that aren't necessarily in the best interests of the Gotei 13, but he's definitely on their side in this battle.

Agreed both sides are manipulative but Urahara is definitely not working with Aizen especially with how shocked he was when he found out about the experiments. I used to think Urahara was gonna be the villain originally due to his always there at the right time character but of course Aizen changed that opinion. Of course as Darth pointed out there was more than just Ichigo not being recognized since he could've created some mod souls or come up with some other plan to get the hougyoku back. My guess is he wanted to conduct some hollofication experiments of his own, only he wanted to know what would happen if it occurred naturally, a perfect shinigami/hollow hybrid and this was perfect timing to try it out with Rukia gone and the hougyoku inside of her. To do this he would need a person with a vast amount of spiritual energy capable of withstanding the transformation process. After he succeeded with turning Ichigo into a Vizard he sent him to soul society to get Rukia and the hougyoku back as a field test knowing he would have to face the Gotei 13 but sent Yorouichi there as a safety precaution for his valuable experiment. After they returned he told him the truth (somewhat) and then he went to Shinji and the Vizards to get them to train Ichigo with his hollow abilities leading to the events we have now. He isn't an evil character just a person who has to do things outside of the box due to the Gotei 13's traditional ways of thinking.

forge · Oct. 5th, 2009, 06:26 PM

Good points folks...and one thing that Shiouhin said kind of made me think...is Ichigo really just a Vizard? As far as we've been told, a Vizard is a person who has shinigami powers and was turned into a hollow. Ichigo had neither sets of powers but gained both at the exact same time...he's neither an Arrancar nor a Vizard...he's both and yet neither...hmm